Article: 8151 of alt.support.depression.medication X-Symantec-TimeoutProtection: 0 Status: U Return-Path: From: James D Milton Newsgroups: alt.support.depression.manic,alt.support.depression.manic.moderated,alt.support.depression.medication,soc.support.depression.manic Subject: Re: Should I hang in there with Wellbutrin? [insomnia] Reply-To: jdmilton@elp.rr.com Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 89 Organization: Road Runner - Texas X-Spamscanner: mailbox5.ucsd.edu (v1.2 May 26 2003 01:55:38, -2.0/5.0 2.55) X-Spam-Level: Level X-MailScanner: PASSED (v1.2.7 25935 h6FKUnrT044121 mailbox5.ucsd.edu) Approved: asdmmsub@earthlilnk.net Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 20:31:57 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 219.88.23.89 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@xtra.co.nz X-Trace: news.xtra.co.nz 1058337574 219.88.23.89 (Wed, 16 Jul 2003 18:39:34 NZST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 18:39:34 NZST Path: news.meer.net!sea-read.news.verio.net!dfw-artgen!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!news.xtra.co.nz!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: archive.mv.meer.net alt.support.depression.manic:22387 alt.support.depression.medication:8151 soc.support.depression.manic:836 On 14 Jul 2003 14:41:10 -0700, Summersday@Yahoo.com (Gandalf) wrote: > Hello all, > I have been taking Wellbutrin for 2 months now. I've had persistent > insomnia since I started taking it. I've been hanging in there, hoping > that it would eventually ease up. Instead I find that it is staying > pretty constant. So two months into this most recent biochemical > experiment (about 1 month after reaching the full dosage) I am > wondering whether the insomnia is going to get better -- or whether > this is as good as it gets, this insomnia is part and parcel of > Wellbutrin for me, and it is time to switch meds. > For me, this insomnia typically means that if I try to go to sleep at > 11 that I am still totally alert at 12, and eventually give in to the > aid of drugs (this particular insomnia requires about 50 mg Seroquel > for sleep) and am usually asleep by about 2am. As I have suggested previously since you have tried other antidepressants with only limited success, I recommend that you explore the possibility of TAT (Thyroid Augmentation Therapy) for treating refractory depression. IMO you have nothing to lose - except your depression. TAT is very easy to do and only involves taking artificial T4 (Synthroid or Levoxyl) and T3 (Cytomel). The FREE T4 and FREE T3 levels are measured and the doses of these meds are adjusted to put these levels in the 125-150% ranges of their normal maximum values. Then many people will become depression-free or else will find that their ADs will suddenly start to work for them. This procedure is well documented in the psychiatric literature by Whybrow and Bauer and is nothing new. If my memory serves me correctly, TAT has been around for some 20 years. Of course don't be surprised when your TSH level drops to zero! That is precisely what it should do - because you are taking such a high level of artificial thyroid hormones, your thyroid does not need to supply any natural hormones. For example I take 25 micrograms/day of Cytomel and 112 micrograms/day of Levoxyl. I need to only take 37.5 mg of Effexor XR BID. And I am depression-free! Females outnumber males 8 to 1 where TAT is successful. If you carefully examine the Prescribing Information for Wellbutrin SR: http://us.gsk.com/products/assets/us_wellbutrinSR.pdf you will note that bupropion is an AD which is believed to increase the dopamine and norepinephrine neurotransmitter levels. Norepinephrine is a stimulant for the brain which can cause insomnia for some people. Too much dopamine can (and does) induce seizures. Because antipsychotics (like the Seroquel you take) also involve increasing various dopamine levels, the combination of APs with the immediate-release formulation of Wellbutrin or the sustained-release formulation, increase the probability of having a seizure. See page 11. Increasing the dose from 300 mg/day to 400/day increases the probability of having a seizure by a factor of 4. Increasing the dose to 600 mg/day raises the seizure probability by 10. See page 6. Taking Wellbutrin SR doses closer together than the recommended 12 hours also raises the seizure probability. Under no circumstances should doses be taken closer than 8 hours! See page 9. The closer together the doses are, the higher the maximum level of dopamine in the brain becomes. Alcohol, sedatives, and benzodiazepines (like Klonopin) may also lower the seizure threshold when taking Wellbutrin. See page 9 for more details. Increased levels of dopamine decreases the cravings for nicotine for some people. Wellbutrin is the same as Zyban which is prescribed as an aid for smoking cessation. Wellbutrin and Zyban should NEVER be combined because of the danger of causing a seizure! See page 5. Please note that in Table 1 (page 7) the percentages of those taking Wellbutrin SR having the following side effects were: agitation (3%), anxiety (5%), and insomnia (11%) for 300 mg/day. These adverse reactions were increased to 9%, 6%, and 16% respectively when the dose of Wellbutrin SR was raised to 400 mg/day. IMO these were due to the increase in their norepinephrine levels. (Effexor XR also increases norepinephrine as well as serotonin levels.) Perhaps some of this information will aid you in your decision whether or not to discontinue Wellbutrin SR. Best wishes for better sleep and better meds from, James Article: 8170 of alt.support.depression.medication Status: U Return-Path: From: "summer rain" References: Subject: Re: Should I hang in there with Wellbutrin? [insomnia] X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: Lines: 117 X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Newsgroups: alt.support.depression.manic,alt.support.depression.manic.moderated,alt.support.depression.medication,soc.support.depression.manic Approved: asdmmsub@earthlilnk.net Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 07:09:22 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 219.88.23.1 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@xtra.co.nz X-Trace: news.xtra.co.nz 1058386898 219.88.23.1 (Thu, 17 Jul 2003 08:21:38 NZST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 08:21:38 NZST Organization: Xtra Path: news.meer.net!sea-read.news.verio.net!dfw-artgen!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.xtra.co.nz!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: archive.mv.meer.net alt.support.depression.manic:22389 alt.support.depression.medication:8170 soc.support.depression.manic:838 TSH is a naturally occurring hormone in your body. It's only when it is outside the normal range that there is a problem that needs to be treated. You *Need* some TSH in your body. Too little is as bad as too much. Overmedication with thyroid medication induces artificial hyperthyroidism, which can cause rapid and/or irregular heartbeat, tremors, weakness, heat intolerance, sweating, weight loss, irritability, mood swings, and more frequent bowel movements. Women may have lighter, less frequent menstruation, and difficulties getting pregnant or carrying a child to term. Men may experience erectile dysfunction and a loss of interest in sex. A related problem in 5% of patients involves the eyes, which can appear enlarged and bulging. Getting your TSH level to a lower than normal level makes sense, however. a TSH of 0 is dangerous. It can lead to serious complications, such as brittle bones and the risk of heart problems including a rhythm change or heart attack. Overdosing a patient on any synthetic thyroid hormone is at the very least controversial, and at most, malpractice. IMNSHO, any doctor who recommends lowering your TSH to 0 is a quack. B "James D Milton" wrote in message news:d4m8hvk3k6uej79crcm4h8vue83nu6gmmh@4ax.com... > > > On 14 Jul 2003 14:41:10 -0700, Summersday@Yahoo.com (Gandalf) wrote: > > > Hello all, > > > I have been taking Wellbutrin for 2 months now. I've had persistent > > insomnia since I started taking it. I've been hanging in there, hoping > > that it would eventually ease up. Instead I find that it is staying > > pretty constant. So two months into this most recent biochemical > > experiment (about 1 month after reaching the full dosage) I am > > wondering whether the insomnia is going to get better -- or whether > > this is as good as it gets, this insomnia is part and parcel of > > Wellbutrin for me, and it is time to switch meds. > > > For me, this insomnia typically means that if I try to go to sleep at > > 11 that I am still totally alert at 12, and eventually give in to the > > aid of drugs (this particular insomnia requires about 50 mg Seroquel > > for sleep) and am usually asleep by about 2am. > > As I have suggested previously since you have tried other > antidepressants with only limited success, I recommend that you explore > the possibility of TAT (Thyroid Augmentation Therapy) for treating > refractory depression. IMO you have nothing to lose - except your > depression. > > TAT is very easy to do and only involves taking artificial T4 (Synthroid > or Levoxyl) and T3 (Cytomel). The FREE T4 and FREE T3 levels are > measured and the doses of these meds are adjusted to put these levels in > the 125-150% ranges of their normal maximum values. Then many people > will become depression-free or else will find that their ADs will > suddenly start to work for them. > > This procedure is well documented in the psychiatric literature by > Whybrow and Bauer and is nothing new. If my memory serves me correctly, > TAT has been around for some 20 years. Of course don't be surprised when > your TSH level drops to zero! That is precisely what it should do - > because you are taking such a high level of artificial thyroid hormones, > your thyroid does not need to supply any natural hormones. For example I > take 25 micrograms/day of Cytomel and 112 micrograms/day of Levoxyl. I > need to only take 37.5 mg of Effexor XR BID. And I am depression-free! > Females outnumber males 8 to 1 where TAT is successful. > > If you carefully examine the Prescribing Information for Wellbutrin SR: > > http://us.gsk.com/products/assets/us_wellbutrinSR.pdf > > you will note that bupropion is an AD which is believed to increase the > dopamine and norepinephrine neurotransmitter levels. Norepinephrine is a > stimulant for the brain which can cause insomnia for some people. Too > much dopamine can (and does) induce seizures. Because antipsychotics > (like the Seroquel you take) also involve increasing various dopamine > levels, the combination of APs with the immediate-release formulation of > Wellbutrin or the sustained-release formulation, increase the > probability of having a seizure. See page 11. > > Increasing the dose from 300 mg/day to 400/day increases the probability > of having a seizure by a factor of 4. Increasing the dose to 600 mg/day > raises the seizure probability by 10. See page 6. > > Taking Wellbutrin SR doses closer together than the recommended 12 hours > also raises the seizure probability. Under no circumstances should doses > be taken closer than 8 hours! See page 9. The closer together the doses > are, the higher the maximum level of dopamine in the brain becomes. > > Alcohol, sedatives, and benzodiazepines (like Klonopin) may also lower > the seizure threshold when taking Wellbutrin. See page 9 for more > details. > > Increased levels of dopamine decreases the cravings for nicotine for > some people. Wellbutrin is the same as Zyban which is prescribed as an > aid for smoking cessation. Wellbutrin and Zyban should NEVER be combined > because of the danger of causing a seizure! See page 5. > > Please note that in Table 1 (page 7) the percentages of those taking > Wellbutrin SR having the following side effects were: agitation (3%), > anxiety (5%), and insomnia (11%) for 300 mg/day. These adverse reactions > were increased to 9%, 6%, and 16% respectively when the dose of > Wellbutrin SR was raised to 400 mg/day. IMO these were due to the > increase in their norepinephrine levels. (Effexor XR also increases > norepinephrine as well as serotonin levels.) > > Perhaps some of this information will aid you in your decision whether > or not to discontinue Wellbutrin SR. > > > Best wishes for better sleep and better meds from, > > James >